Ink Limit Question

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Ink Limit Question

Postby HeagSta » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:57 am

Hey everybody, I had a quick question for anyone that may know. If the ink limit is 300 for a project, does that pertain to the inks/pencils? If so, how do I keep the inks under the limit? I have my pencils layer set to multiply, it's filled with 100K. After it's multiplied, it's sitting around 330. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby Jason Lewis » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:26 pm

Mark Sweeny had a good post on rgb color profiles and how they relate to ink limits.

poke around on [url]marksweeney.blogspot.com[/url]
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby rancez » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:46 am

Jason Lewis wrote:Mark Sweeny had a good post on rgb color profiles and how they relate to ink limits.
poke around on marksweeney.blogspot.com

Hi! I think these are the tutorials:

Part 1 http://marksweeney.blogspot.com/2009/01/comic-book-coloring-photoshop-ink.html
Part 2 http://marksweeney.blogspot.com/2009/01/comic-book-coloring-photoshop-ink_12.html

But, I have a doubt right now! If you work that way (sweeney tuts), It's imposible to color with 100%black, so how do you do the trapping!!!
Or there is something I have not understood.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby Sweeney » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:52 am

HeagSta wrote:Hey everybody, I had a quick question for anyone that may know. If the ink limit is 300 for a project, does that pertain to the inks/pencils? If so, how do I keep the inks under the limit? I have my pencils layer set to multiply, it's filled with 100K. After it's multiplied, it's sitting around 330. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

-Jesse


There's no way to enforce ink limits in CMYK, as you're finding. What you'll have to do is look for the darkest area of pencils, and figure out what percentage of K it is, and use that as a guide to what your maximum CMY should be.

Pencils are rarely 100K - if the darkest area of pencils is 80% and your ink limit is 300, then don't use color combinations of CMY that exceed 220 (220 CMY + 80K = 300).

I don't know what the pencils looks like, but if they were fine lines, with no shading, then you could get away with going over the ink limit. Areas of thin lines that have ink totals of 330 aren't going to have much effect on the printing. However, if the pencils have thick lines, or heavy shading, you need to watch your ink limits.



rancez wrote:But, I have a doubt right now! If you work that way (sweeney tuts), It's imposible to color with 100%black, so how do you do the trapping!!!
Or there is something I have not understood.


If you work in RGB, you have to fix your lineart layer after converting to CMYK, no matter what. There's simply no setting that will allow the lineart to convert to 0C 0M 0Y 100K. So convert to CMYK, fix the lineart layer, then add the trapping.

Also, in RGB I use channels for the lineart, not layers. If you use anything but 100 Black Ink Limit, then a lineart Layer doesn't look solid black, and this can throw off your perception.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby PeterK » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:20 am

Mark, I noticed in the tutorial links posted, that you were using a custom cmyk setup to illustrate your example. Something to note is that a custom cmyk setting in photoshop is not the same as getting an actual press profile. If you use a proper press profile your colour should convert well without colour shifts. In many cases if you're not given a profile from the printer, they will often say to just use one of the included profiles like SWOP coated v2. If one absolutely must use custom settings to get certain ink limits, it would be better to use GCR, not UCR, to avoid the colour shifts that you illustrate in your example. GCR will replace the colours that would have resulted in a neutral grey with black. This helps lessen the chance of colour shifts on press and it won't give you the wild colour shifts that you were seeing with those particular UCR settings which lower CMY values in order to lower the ink limit. (that's why the rich reds got dumbed down to a pale orange)
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby Sweeney » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:37 am

PeterK wrote:Mark, I noticed in the tutorial links posted, that you were using a custom cmyk setup to illustrate your example. Something to note is that a custom cmyk setting in photoshop is not the same as getting an actual press profile. If you use a proper press profile your colour should convert well without colour shifts. In many cases if you're not given a profile from the printer, they will often say to just use one of the included profiles like SWOP coated v2.


Most of the time editors don't even know what company is going to print the book, never mind which press, so a printing profile is useless.

Swop coated v2 adds a shit ton of K-tones. A simple Red (100Y 100M) adds 10%K when converted. Darker colors get even more. Keeping K-tones down when converting is the entire reason for custom CMYK setting.


PeterK wrote:If one absolutely must use custom settings to get certain ink limits, it would be better to use GCR, not UCR, to avoid the colour shifts that you illustrate in your example. GCR will replace the colours that would have resulted in a neutral grey with black. This helps lessen the chance of colour shifts on press and it won't give you the wild colour shifts that you were seeing with those particular UCR settings which lower CMY values in order to lower the ink limit. (that's why the rich reds got dumbed down to a pale orange)


GCR adds K-tones when converting to CMYK, again, what we're trying to avoid in the first place.

UCR is on the spec sheet from one of the BIG companies for how to set up files. The point of my including their color profile was to show what an utterly piss-poor setting it is for converting RGB to CMYK.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby PeterK » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:28 am

Sweeney wrote:Most of the time editors don't even know what company is going to print the book, never mind which press, so a printing profile is useless.

Swop coated v2 adds a shit ton of K-tones. A simple Red (100Y 100M) adds 10%K when converted. Darker colors get even more. Keeping K-tones down when converting is the entire reason for custom CMYK setting.


No black is added on my conversion, so I don't know where your 10% comes from. Starting from either sRGB or AdobeRGB and specifying a CMYK colour of 100,100 in the picker gives a red with magenta and yellow in the 90s and no black. Besides that, where the black starts to come in can be controlled in custom settings by different black generation settings (light, medium, heavy).

GCR adds K-tones when converting to CMYK, again, what we're trying to avoid in the first place.

UCR is on the spec sheet from one of the BIG companies for how to set up files. The point of my including their color profile was to show what an utterly piss-poor setting it is for converting RGB to CMYK.


I'm sure I've said this before, but black is NOT the enemy! UCR is an older method and one of the reasons printers may request it is ignorance. GCR ensures better colour stability because changes in any of the inks will not affect the hue as much due to the fact that CMY has been reduced and replaced by black. UCR is more prone to colour shifts on press, but then a lot of the poorer printers (meaning ones who don't trust your separations) WANT more CMY on press because it allows them to fart around with the colour on press a lot more (and consequently, often results in more wildly differing print runs.) Just having black run through colours doesn't cause any inherent harm to the image. If it's supposed to be darker there, adding black is better than adding more of the third, dirtying colour, plus the other two to balance it out again.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby Sweeney » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:54 am

PeterK wrote:No black is added on my conversion, so I don't know where your 10% comes from.


I misstyped: it should have read 20C 100Y 100M when converted from RGB gives me 20C 97M 100Y 10K, using web coated SWOP v2

PeterK wrote: I'm sure I've said this before, but black is NOT the enemy!


I don't have a problem with *some* K-tones in the mid-tones and shadows (15-20% max). Unfortunately, comics have the worst printing of most paper-mediums. We've got printers who can't even match their own proofs. Not the publishers' proofs. The printers' own proofs. Expecting them to do a good job with K-tones added to the mix? Good luck with that. Experience proves what a bad idea that is, when it comes to printing comics.

Most colorists will give you the same answers regarding K-tones. It increases the odds of the printers fucking up the press run, muddying up the colors, and making things darker than they should be.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby PeterK » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:59 am

Sweeney wrote:I misstyped: it should have read 20C 100Y 100M when converted from RGB gives me 20C 97M 100Y 10K, using web coated SWOP v2


That doesn't sound right. How are you arriving at that number?

edit-just noticed I hadn't set us prepress defaults fully as I was doing some testing. I get a value of 14,99,94,4.
And having any kind of black in there is not wrong. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that the insistence on no black in your colours is very misguided. If a colour is darker, then adding black to make it darker is perfectly acceptable.

PeterK wrote: I'm sure I've said this before, but black is NOT the enemy!



I don't have a problem with *some* K-tones in the mid-tones and shadows (15-20% max). Unfortunately, comics have the worst printing of most paper-mediums. We've got printers who can't even match their own proofs. Not the publishers' proofs. The printers' own proofs. Expecting them to do a good job with K-tones added to the mix? Good luck with that. Experience proves what a bad idea that is, when it comes to printing comics.


That's nothing but the printer's fault if they can't match their own proofs and shows a GROSS negligence in basic colour management knowledge. If your printer is telling you not to use black, to use UCR (because the wild variations give them a better sense of control... yeah, reconcile those factors somehow...), then quite frankly they are part of the old-school printers who have absolutely NO process control and make their money off of things like "fixing" colour discrepancies for their clients (which THEY are responsible for introducing in the first place. It's a great scam... create a problem and then charge your client to fix it.)

Most colorists will give you the same answers regarding K-tones. It increases the odds of the printers fucking up the press run, muddying up the colors, and making things darker than they should be.


I remember reading long ago on some site known for digital comic colouring back in the 90s (can't remember what it was called), they had a guide for colour separating that stated that there should be no black above 30% in your image or your colours would get muddy. I've seen these same things being parroted around here by more people than just you. It's like an urban myth that people just believe to be true. I'm pretty sure that when that colouring house specified no more than 30% black, they were referring to how much to darken colours in RGB mode, because if it was too dark, and then you convert that sep to CMYK, using the old-standard UCR settings, it introduced a whole lot of dirtying third colour (because back then GCR was not as popular as it is now).
Adding black does NOT muddy colours! Adding third colours to darken DOES! This is why theoretically adding equal amounts of CMY should give neutrals, but it doesn't due to contaminants in the inks. A patch of 100% of CM and Y doesn't give you a black like it theoretically should, but a brown.
Adding black to a colour maintains it's hue much better than adding more of a third colour. It does not desaturate (or muddy it up), it only darkens it.
I would even guess that the printers, seeing a GCR separation, reconvert it back into a UCR sep for themselves, GUARANTEEING a poorer, muddier separation, albeit one that they have given themselves more room to "fix" on press.
I've worked in a prepress department doing colour separations for almost 8 years now and have worked on separations printed on everything from newsprint, magazines, cardboard boxes, plastic bags, in litho, flexo, gravure, and web printing. And on the side I do comics. We've sent stuff with GCR separations, to CHINA no less, and they come out looking beautiful. That's the scary thing. China has been making huge strides in the printing industry. Not only are they a lot cheaper, but as their industry grows they are learning all the new technologies, while the traditional attitude in north American printing has been to stick to old-school, non-colour-managed workflows. These people are slowly (and literally) dying off as the new generation of printers are trained on current technologies and trends.
I don't know what kind of clients you've worked for or how knowledgeable they are, but you'd think that for all the printing big companies like Marvel and DC do, they would demand printing that would enable them to maintain consistent-looking spandex every month, regardless of where it's printed. It is possible. I just realized I've been ranting. Excuse me.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby Sweeney » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:28 am

PeterK wrote:think that for all the printing big companies like Marvel and DC do, they would demand printing that would enable them to maintain consistent-looking spandex every month, regardless of where it's printed.


THANK YOU! This is the best laugh I'd had in ages.

Peter, I don't doubt your knowledge, skills or experience. If it were any other kind of four color printing, I'd agree with you.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby Jason Lewis » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:19 am

rancez wrote:
Jason Lewis wrote:Mark Sweeny had a good post on rgb color profiles and how they relate to ink limits.
poke around on marksweeney.blogspot.com

Hi! I think these are the tutorials:

Part 1 http://marksweeney.blogspot.com/2009/01/comic-book-coloring-photoshop-ink.html
Part 2 http://marksweeney.blogspot.com/2009/01/comic-book-coloring-photoshop-ink_12.html

But, I have a doubt right now! If you work that way (sweeney tuts), It's imposible to color with 100%black, so how do you do the trapping!!!
Or there is something I have not understood.


The only reason I don't use Sweeny's color profile is that it messes up my trapping. I suppose if you bumped it up to 100/300 it'd be fine though. Since everything I've been doing lately is being output by Marvel (and involves barely using gradients and a limitation of 25% increments of cmy) I've been coloring in cmyk and using the official Marvel profile. Sweeny's profile seems to make the most sense though.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby Megan Wilson » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:12 pm

Hey gutterzombie-ers! Its been a while since anyone has posted on this thread and the tutorials linked in the posts above are dead. Just wondering... what are your current best practices when a publisher doesn't specify ink limits?
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Re: Ink Limit Question

Postby MBirkhofer » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:48 am

I am not remotely and expert on this.

A few things I can suggest though.
1. With the onset and proliferation of digital comics and webcomics, consider the fact, we will shortly not be limited by CYMK at ALL, and really, should be thinking about how we can make comics that use the full range of RGB.
2. if you do want to be ink limit set. work in RGB, convert to U.S. web coated (swop) v2, to hand the file over. make sure it visually is within the range of what you wanted it to. it has a 300% ink limit, and 20% gain set. This is basically the industry standard. So if you are handing over us web coated v2 cymk files, you should be fine in most cases.

3.If you are being specifically told you need 240%, due to newsprint, or other factors. (laminates and other factors can be an issue I hear.)
Either set up a custom, or just use the newsprint preset. Should be fairly good to go.
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Re: Ink Limit Question

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