GUTTERZOMBIE.com

So, I suppose the real question is – "what can those of us who have been burned by Darren do to stop this?"

Oh, and Dave, we should talk. Apprenticeship. Hmmm, sounds interesting.

Zombie Dave McCaig wrote:

Gotta start somewhere.

You know, joking aside, apprenticeship is a lost art that I wish still existed. I'd he happy to take someone on like that if it benefited both of us.

I think a lot of it has to do with geography, comics is a niche and everyone is spread out? Or maybe it's just because it went out of style a long time ago, what with schools and everything. I agree though, everything I've learned has been from other artist, and I will continue to learn from them, so I like to give back when ever possible.

Zombie Dave McCaig wrote:

Gotta start somewhere.

You know, joking aside, apprenticeship is a lost art that I wish still existed. I'd he happy to take someone on like that if it benefited both of us.

For real. I'm in a situation that's probably as close to apprenticeship as one could get these days- I'm working freelance for Hi-Fi right now. It's great coloring pages from DC one level removed: Any big mistakes or stupid decisions on my end get caught and corrected by the real pros, and comparing my work with the final corrected version is the best critique I could ask for. Plus I get paid!
After a year of it, I've gotten so much better than when I started. And so much faster that I almost convince myself I've got time to have a life, too!

(So.. big thanks, Brian!)

I'd colored quite a few covers for Darren in the past, mainly because I was friends with the artists that drew them. I knew going in that I wasn't going to get paid though. Darren offered me work a few times, (all backend deals), but I never took em simply because I knew I'd never see a dime. I have nothing bad to say about him, because he was always up front with me about the lack of pay. I just took it as an opportunity to color over some of my friends and a few other great artists and left it at that.

Mecha wrote:That happened to me as well. There were 3 inkers, including myself, working on one particular issue at one time. None of us knew about it until we almost finished the book, and only pages from myself and one of the others was used. The third guy was left out in the dark completely and I found out about him later completely by accident on DeviantArt.

He does that on every book because eventually artists will wise up and quit. That's why there's 2-3 pencilers on almost every book. Or the very least, one penciler does one book, and a new one does the next because whatever foreign penciler he talked into working for him on the first one has realized he isn't going to pay -- and since he has mouths to feed, the artist goes off to find REAL paying work.

Yeah, I've heard this is a common situation with Bluewater. I was only offered backend pay, and knew there wouldn't be any, but I wanted to do it for the experience, and would've finished the book had I not found those other coloured pages.

mudcat wrote:I'd colored quite a few covers for Darren in the past, mainly because I was friends with the artists that drew them. I knew going in that I wasn't going to get paid though. Darren offered me work a few times, (all backend deals), but I never took em simply because I knew I'd never see a dime. I have nothing bad to say about him, because he was always up front with me about the lack of pay. I just took it as an opportunity to color over some of my friends and a few other great artists and left it at that.

Same thing happened with me. I won't complain about Darren because I knew I wasn't being paid, he told me. I did it for the experience. FYI, according to Wikipedia, Bluewater didn't become a publisher until 2007. So I would suspect, not sure, that they started paying people after that, not when they were with Alias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluewater_Productions

I'm still not sure why people complain about not getting paid for a job, when they were never promised payment. If they don't offer to pay, just take Dave's advice then and wait for a job that does.

The Wiki entry is written by the company. They were a company long before 2007, but used other publishers to get the books out. And some artists might have known from the start they wouldn't be paid, but others were promised payment, including some of the most recent pencilers. Most of the artists promised payment are new to the industry, and it's a way to get them to work because they don't know better.

Mentoring and assistant work is readily available to a lot of artists. I think that's kind of like an apprenticeship, isn't it?

i'm curious on how successful one would be publishing their book thru them. i see their titles at most of the shops im at, much of the art isnt very good but the distribution is definately there (from what i could tell anyway.) and they do alot of press.

By all means, give it a try proph3t.

chamba wrote:G'day folks.
New to these boards and all that jazz.
Was directed here by both appomo and eaglec and yeah I can see why.
So the topic:
does someone ever worked for bluewater and get paid?
I can only speak for myself and I can say, somewhat.
I somehow managed a deal where I got 1000 upfront per issue with some back-end percentage (which I knew from the beginning would never come) so yes and no in a sense.
I knew 1000 per issue wasn't much of anything, but i needed to do something at that time, and I also knew that if i didn't get anything from the start i wouldn't get anything altogether.
I received payment for the 1st 2 issues and 2 pin-ups.
However i didn not receive payment (as far as i recall) for the 3rd (and my last) issue.
As far as I know, another artist for 'hired' to fill in some missing pages from the 3rd issue.
I was willing and dedicated to complete the 4 issue mini series but due to problems (from their end) I just had to boot it.

thx for sharing your experience with them..and to the others too...
@marc lewis ...i think you cant do more then to inform the people with threads like that..at the end its theire decision if they want to work with them or not

I am only going to do this one response (against my better judgment).

There are people that get paid through Bluewater all the time. The ones that seem to have a problem are the ones that were from the ALIAS days. Bluewater never made a dime from ALIAS. It might not be a lot but we do pay people. It is not only good business, but respect for people to get paid.

Before you sign a deal, look at the market you are working in. The indie comic market is struggling and Diamond is canceling books all the time. Bluewater books are getting canceled because of low sales numbers. The indie market will be going away soon because the bar for sales is 1,500 and Diamond is raising it. So unless you are in a financial position to do so, this is not the deal for you.

Mecha and I have history - but what she does not say is that after her last public triad, she asked me work. She also runs a publishing company in which she does back-end deals. We are still waiting for our copies of the HOPE book which we paid for. Mecha also flaked out on inking on many times but I always gave her work because I used to respect her - thats why there were three inkers. The book was solicited and need to come out otherwise it would of been cancelled.

The backend deals are not the best deals in the world....but I make sure everyone that signs them knows the risks of them. I make the people ask many questions before I send the contract (and they are binding). Not all the books will make money on the single issues. Know the market you want to work in. See that most indie books are selling less than 1,000 copies. It is a trade paperback market - which the art teams will get a part of. This is all discussed before the contract is signed. Also the sales numbers are public information.

If people have a problem with me - go to the source. I am happy to answer - every and ALL questions. I always have. Also know that items posted in message boards are slanderous and can be useen as libel. People do not know that, but you are responsible for anything you post in these things. I think people that hide behind a screenname is insane. If you have a problem come to me. I am not out here to take advantage of anyone and always respond to emails. Some of the stuff posted here is completely wrong.

What people also do not post is the fact that people that have done back-end deals get an open door to a creator owned book. There are many of them at Bluewater.

If the books do well the teams do well - what the art teams also get a part of is the movie deals, trade paperbacks sales and licensing. The people that worked on Sinbad will get a part of the revenue for the action figure.

As for my house - what Mecha did not mention is that I was working a 2nd job to pay for the rent - it was working for Evergreen AIDS Foundation as the community outreach manager and my partner was working in the food service.

So once again, if there are postive suggestions on how to make Bluewater a better place, I am all ears. But do it in a positive forum. These posting are always one sided and once again. I do not hide from critism, but not in a public forum. Also know there are two sides to all stories. I am always upfront - but I do not post in message boards. I would aggree with Dave on the back-end deals - if you are not in a place to do it - then don't. Ask questions upfront. Get everything in writing. Comics are fun to work in - but it is a business. Most people forget about that.

Here is an interview for those that want more info: http://www.comicworldnews.com/cgi-bin/i ... s&page=124

I will not be checking this post again - so if you have questions, feel free to email me. Thanks Dave for letting me be a part of this.

Darren Davis

Does someone ever worked for bluewater and have good grammar?

Appomo lives in Germany. English is likely a second language.

Zombie Dave McCaig wrote:Appomo lives in Germany. English is likely a second language.

I didn't mean for my post to be specifically targeted at him, even though I did use his subject text. Sorry Appomo! Your grammar is totally excused.

Zombie Dave McCaig wrote:Appomo lives in Germany. English is likely a second language.

its more the third ..and i know that its horrible..but i think the most people understand what i want to say