pro-life, pro-choice, let's all kill each other! Was: argh

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pro-life, pro-choice, let's all kill each other! Was: argh

Postby monkeybutter » Sun May 31, 2009 8:25 pm

http://www.kansas.com/news/breaking/story/833730.html

"Killing is wrong!" *blam! blam! blam!*

:(
Last edited by monkeybutter on Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: argh

Postby Eagle » Sun May 31, 2009 9:42 pm

He was doing abortions pretty late in the pregnancy, but the horror and irony are just oozing on this one.
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Re: argh

Postby Brytne » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:20 am

Eagle wrote:He was doing abortions pretty late in the pregnancy, but the horror and irony are just oozing on this one.


I hear that. :shock:
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Re: argh

Postby Zombie Dave McCaig » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:57 am

He was doing late abortions in cases where the resulting birth would be harmful to the mother or would not survive outside her body.

I have a lot of respect for the guy. He did a job that needed doing, in a country/religious environment that could not accept the merits of his clinic.

I mean, I can understand if you don't like abortion- but that's no reason to kill people who are ok with it, especially in cases like this guy took on late-term.
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Re: argh

Postby Sweeney » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:24 am

I suspect it's going to be one of those religious nut-jobs who is going to say "God told me to do it!"

I just hope the DA remembers to mention that the suspect threatened witnesses, fled from the scene of the crime, and tossed the gun. All signs of bloody coward. I hope the first degree murder charges stick and he gets life in prison.
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Re: argh

Postby Laura » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:47 am

Many of the pro-life organizations that operate within the law have expressed how wrong the shooter's actions were, and are desperately trying to separate their causes and their legal actions from the illegal act of one lone loony, but one guy stands out:

WashingtonPost.com wrote:That's the concern [that the actions of one man will paint the pro-life movement in a negative light] expressed by anti-abortion activist Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue. "George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions.... Those men and women who slaughter the unborn are murderers according to the Law of God. We must continue to expose them in our communities and peacefully protest them at their offices and homes, and yes, even their churches.


(from WashingtonPost.com)

So, more concern over Obama's reaction, than of the slaying of a man in a church? Way to go, tactless scumbag. Did it ever occur to you that Dr. Tiller might have been a churchgoer so he could make peace with his God? Try to wrap your brain around THAT, you sanctimonious PRICK.

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Re: argh

Postby Eagle » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:15 am

Zombie Dave McCaig wrote:He was doing late abortions in cases where the resulting birth would be harmful to the mother or would not survive outside her body.

Ooohhh. That hadn't been made clear to me.

My mother was in such a situation before she was pregnant with me. She would have died. I know the sorrow she had to live with after. I know the regret. I had a ghost beside me most of my life, but she never shared it until she knew I was ready for it.

These stupid fucks don't know the nightmare that this decision is. They have no right to take that away. My mother would have died had she not had a choice.
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Re: argh

Postby Jemm » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:07 am

I'm Christian, I'm Pro-Life.








I'm also ashamed to share the same title with monsters like those.
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Re: argh

Postby Zombie Dave McCaig » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:25 am

I am very comfortable with Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicers who see this as a personal decision. I don't think it's right for me to weigh in on decisions of that sort for anyone but me and mine. No judgment if you keep your beliefs focused on how they affect what you do, as long as they don't affect what *I* do.

(Tying this into the political threads on GZ) Ironically, individual freedom used to be a Republican cornerstone, and one I agree with for the most part.
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Re: argh

Postby monkeybutter » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:36 am

Zombie Dave McCaig wrote:I am very comfortable with Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicers who see this as a personal decision. I don't think it's right for me to weigh in on decisions of that sort for anyone but me and mine. No judgment if you keep your beliefs focused on how they affect what you do, as long as they don't affect what *I* do.

(Tying this into the political threads on GZ) Ironically, individual freedom used to be a Republican cornerstone, and one I agree with for the most part.



w00t abortion debate on the internet, I am so very excited!

ok, so to lead off with, I am pro-choice.

That said, I disagree with the prevailing attitude of pro-choice people that says "don't like abortion? Don't have one!" because it's dismissive and betrays a lack of understanding of the opposition.

People don't disagree with abortion because they don't want to have one, people disagree with abortion because they think it's murder. Certainly if you don't think murder is right, then you shouldn't murder - a subtlety that seems to have been lost on the guy in the link I posted. But you also have a duty to try and keep other people from murdering as well. Much as how dismissing terrorists as crazy and hating our freedom is stupid and nonproductive, dismissing the guy who shot the doctor in church as some kind of mindless crazy killing machine with no motivation we could ever understand is also stupid and counterproductive. He sees abortion as murdering children. I don't agree with him, but I can see how if you take the moral stand that life begins at conception, I can understand how it could slowly drive you crazy.

The line between human and nonhuman, obviously, is the debate here, but where you draw that line is more or less arbitrary. "Being able to survive outside the womb" seems like a natural place that one could draw a line, but so is conception, so is birth, and so are a multitude of other developmental milestones. There's no clear-cut correct answer for when some cluster of cells becomes a human being with a right to live. We eventually have to come to some reasonable compromise on the issue, which I believe Roe vs Wade is.

ps: next up, gun control! ;)
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Re: argh

Postby Sweeney » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:39 am

Jemm wrote:I'm Christian.....

Nobody's perfect! :D

It's a case of a few very rotten apples spoiling the barrel, and it's true of any religion, organization, or any group of people, except for politics.

With politics, its a case of a barrel of rotten apples with a few good shiny apples.

If this utter shitbag was really doing it for prinicples/morals/ethical reasons/convictions, he would have dropped the gun after he shot the doctor and surrendered. Instead he threatened to kill other people who had nothing to do with the doctor, ran away, and discarded evidence. Any religious defense should be disallowed by the judge when he goes to trial.
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Re: argh

Postby monkeybutter » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:41 am

Sweeney wrote: Any religious defense should be disallowed by the judge


I'm not aware of any such thing, what do you mean by "religious defense?"
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Re: argh

Postby Sweeney » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:49 am

monkeybutter wrote:I'm not aware of any such thing, what do you mean by "religious defense?"

i.e. using your religious beliefs as justification for murder, like the "God's Law" one person spouted

There are variations of it, like using your cultural beliefs as a defense against murder charges resulting from so-call 'honor killings' among Muslims and Sikhs, or a defense against murder charges for killing your girlfriend and her lover "I'm Italian, very passionate people, we excuse this sort of thing" (Paraphrased)--- an actual defense, and the motherfucker got the charges dropped down to INVOLUNTARY manslaughter, and something like 6 yrs!
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Re: argh

Postby monkeybutter » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:57 am

Sweeney wrote:
monkeybutter wrote:I'm not aware of any such thing, what do you mean by "religious defense?"

i.e. using your religious beliefs as justification for murder, like the "God's Law" one person spouted

There are variations of it, like using your cultural beliefs as a defense against murder charges resulting from so-call 'honor killings' among Muslims and Sikhs, or a defense against murder charges for killing your girlfriend and her lover "I'm Italian, very passionate people, we excuse this sort of thing" (Paraphrased)--- an actual defense, and the motherfucker got the charges dropped down to INVOLUNTARY manslaughter, and something like 6 yrs!


I've said it before, I'll say it again: the jury system just doesn't work.
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Re: argh

Postby Soonergriff » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:07 pm

monkeybutter wrote:I've said it before, I'll say it again: the jury system just doesn't work.


It doesn't work very well, and has many flaws, but the alternative is a recipe for an Oligarchy. The current Supreme Court nominee sees it as her duty to legislate from the bench.

As for the murder, it's atrocious, no matter how you feel about abortion. And I can't see him using religion as a defense, simply because the murder took place in a church. Even a screwed up jury ought to be able to see through that, but we'll see.

I'm equally troubled by the shooting in Oklahoma City: http://krmg.com/blogs/the_krmg_morning_news_blog/2009/05/video-okc-pharmacist-shoots-ki.html
He was well within his rights until he pulled out the second handgun.
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